Dr. Yunus gave a wide-ranging interview to the Bonik Barta that was published on June 5, 2024. Below, an English translation of the interview is provided in full. This represents one of the most complete statements by Professor Yunus about his state of mind during this extended period of unjust persecution, and has some interesting historical elements to it dating back to the Bangladesh war of independence and his role in the liberation struggle from his base (at the time) in the United States.
Dr. Muhammad Yunus is the founder of the microcredit institution Grameen Bank and the only Bangladeshi citizen to win the Nobel Peace Prize in 2006. He was awarded the highest civilian honor in the United States, the Congressional Gold Medal, back in 2013. He is one of only seven people in the world to have won these three prestigious awards: Nobel Peace Prize, the US Presidential Medal of Freedom (2009), and the Congressional Gold Medal. The ‘Paris 2024 Olympic Village’ was built at a cost of 400 million euros based on Dr. Yunus’s philosophy, and he is an advisor and goodwill ambassador to the Olympics. He is admired around the world for his contributions in alleviating poverty and empowering women. However, he is facing over a hundred cases in court on charges of corruption and labor rights violations in his country. In a recent exclusive interview with Bonik Barta, he spoke on such a variety of issues.
Your name has been in the headlines of the media around the world lately. Due to a number of discrepancies, you are being dragged to court, facing punishment. At your age, are these events collapsing your spirits?
More than damaging my spirits, they are disrupting my work. The work I wanted to do, and the work I had started, have come to a halt. This is tragic. Forcing me to jail means stopping all my initiatives. It’s similar to death. Why should I go to jail? I haven’t committed any crime!
When you founded Grameen Bank and Grameen Telecom, the government cooperated with you. Even now, you have been taking various initiatives. Are you getting cooperation from the government at present? If not, why?
Whether I am getting assistance or not, the journalists will be able to answer that better. As they are observing what is happening in the country and what is not. We are not being able to move forward with the major initiatives we had prepared for. Now, I’m afraid that everything I have built will be lost! There is a lot of hard work behind everything from many; it was not easy to build these things. Seeing them fall apart is the biggest regret for me now.
There has been pressure on Bangladesh’s democracy and human rights from the West for many years. After the elections, a high-ranking US official came here. It was said that they want to rebuild the relationship this time. Do you think that the pressure has eased somewhat now, or are they taking a go-slow approach on Bangladesh’s democracy and human rights?
What the West wants is no major consideration for me. The thing to consider is whether we want democracy, human rights and the freedom of the press, or not. If they want what we want, then that’s a matter of joy. If they don’t, we will keep longing for it in our own way. Why should we let them impose their will on us?
What they say at times does not matter. Each country will formulate its foreign policy according to its own rules. Our needs need to be clear, first. Whether they want or not, even if it goes beyond their opinion—our opinion will not change because of that. Establishing human rights is vital for us, freedom of the press is salient. Until we can establish these things, we will keep talking through multitudes of euphemisms. These words bring no change. What matters is that we have to establish these things ourselves.
You were in the United States during the 1971 Liberation War. You came to the country after independence. How far has Bangladesh progressed in nation-building in the last 50 years? Where are the problems located?
I was then in Nashville, the capital of the U.S. state of Tennessee. There I taught at Middle Tennessee State University from 1969 to 1971. During this time, I was keeping up with what was happening in the country. There were six of us Bengalis there together. Then we got the news that Bangladesh had declared independence. Immediately, the six of us sat together for a discussion. There were discussions and debates on taking Bangladeshi citizenship and speaking on behalf of Bangladesh. After a long discussion, we formed the Bangladesh Citizens Committee and informed all the television stations in Nashville about our decision to take citizenship, and gave interviews. This was our first initiative. Then we formed a fund to continue this work and decided that everyone would contribute a fixed amount of monthly fees. Two days later, I went to Washington DC to build public opinion in favor of Bangladesh. Because, all the Bengalis residing in the USA were supposed to meet in Washington. Enayet Karim was then the Deputy Ambassador of Pakistan to the United States. Many of us have taken residence in his house by then. We started working for Bangladesh from there. Within a few days, two organizations were formed, the New York-based one called the Bangladesh League of America and the Chicago-based one named the Bangladesh Defense League.
Who were the main people behind these two organizations?
The world-renowned Bangladeshi-American architect and engineer Fazlur Rahman Khan (FR Khan) was the founder of the Bangladesh Defense League. We were in touch with both organizations. A newsletter was published under the editorship of Professor Shamsul Bari on behalf of the Bangladesh Defense League. We were very happy to receive the newsletter. I was invited to the Chicago conference and I went there. A lot of discussion took place there. Subsequently, the Bangladesh Defense League entrusted me with the responsibility of publishing the newsletter. After getting the responsibility, I used to publish it from my house. Since then I have published many issues. I published the newsletter from the declaration of independence till January 1972. It was a big deal for me.
I did another thing, which was to establish an information center in Washington DC. People did not know what was happening in Bangladesh, or why. Thus, everyone could now know what was happening in Bangladesh or why from this information center. Besides, it is necessary to inform journalists, senators and congressmen about what is happening in Bangladesh. That is why this information center was basically established. It was then the summer vacation of the university and I took over the responsibility of the information center during the vacation.
I kept working. The initiative continued. Each issue of the published newsletter would have had a cartoon of mine. Subsequently, these newsletters were compiled and published as a book by the Liberation War Museum. Professor Shamsul Bari and I wrote the introduction to this book. This was my major contribution until independence.
When the country became independent, I told the Vice Chancellor of my university that I would not stay in America anymore. I will now go to my homeland. I resigned and returned to the country in June 1972.
When you returned, it was a war-torn country. All around there were problems, lack of resources. You had a noble dream of changing Bangladesh. Fifty years later, how much of the Bangladesh you envisioned has been fulfilled?
After its independence, Bangladesh was identical to a bottomless pit. It was known to almost everyone as the poorest country. About 86 percent of the people lived below the poverty line. One cannot even imagine the plight the country was in. When the famine hit in 1974, the country fell into crisis even more. Bangladesh before independence was a Bangladesh full of poverty, misery and disease. Since independence, a gradual change has started in the country. Ordinary people came to play a very active role. The Bangladeshi people were known for their domestication, they never left their homes and villages. Those people started going abroad on their own. As a result, the process of migrating abroad started. The government also did not know what to do about it. In the past 50 years, people have started going to different countries from the villages. In this way, during this period, the people of Bangladesh started getting acquainted with the people of the rest of the world.
The second change after independence came among the educated youth. Before independence, Pakistani investors had set up various establishments in this country. In those establishments, university-educated youths used to work as pen-pushers. They could not go beyond clerical jobs. If they weren’t in a clerk’s position, they were in business. Suddenly a change began to take place among the youth. Due to the quota system of various countries, the garment industry has flourished in Bangladesh. Hong Kong, Korea, and other countries set up garment industries here. Bangladeshi lads started working there. Getting started in the garment industry, they learned the work. Later, they themselves started opening garment factories. This is how the garment industry began in Bangladesh. This industry itself has brought a huge change in Bangladesh. Bangladesh earns a lot of foreign currency by exporting garments. Women started working in this sector. Yet these women never thought that they would be able to work outside the house, or even work. They no longer accepted the various social barriers. Women working outside the home—this is a huge change in Bangladesh. Through this, women have been provided with employment, and they started to become self-reliant. Women from poor families are earning and sending money home to meet household expenses—this is an uncanny event. This marks a huge change. Because of this change, Bangladesh has been able to establish itself as the world’s second largest garment exporter today. In the last 50 years, Bangladesh has undergone a tremendous change from zero.
How would you assess the role of various NGOs in the Post-independence era?
In the aftermath of independence, non-governmental organizations (NGOs) initiated a wide range of activities in Bangladesh. Their presence is ubiquitous from village to village. Whatever each NGO worked on, they implemented it throughout the country. Changes occurred. Earlier, the country was ridden with cholera outbreaks. There was a consensus among people earlier that if people of one village were affected by cholera, the people of other villages would also be affected and they would be wiped out. So they tried to run away from the village in groups. This was the reality of Bangladesh. The International Centre for Diarrheal Disease Research, Bangladesh (ICDDR, B), developed a salt-water-molasses solution as medication to fight cholera, which can be easily prepared at home. People get cured from drinking this. People slowly got rid of cholera in the post-independence period, which marks a paradigm shift. Initially there was no packaging of this formula, people made it themselves. Later it was packaged and marketed.
Grameen Bank brought loans for women. No one even had heard before that the bank would give loans to the poor women of the village. That too without collateral. At first, it seemed surprising to people. However, some appreciated this initiative, while others approached it with skepticism. The story of loan-giving spread from village to village. Grameen Bank not only gave loans to women, but also made them the owner of the bank. Initially the loan amount was 100-200 takas. How eager the people were to take only this amount of debt! People waited for hours, wanted to know what to do or what to learn.
Earlier, in the villages of Bangladesh, there were no toilets for either the rich or the poor. They were not accustomed to using the toilet. People responded to the call of nature behind the bushes. Then, Grameen Bank encouraged people to build latrines. Because in order to be associated with Grameen Bank, toilets must be built first. The bank also gave a loan to build latrines.
Then we moved to home loans. Earlier, inquiries about where the girls were to be married involved the question: how is the (groom’s) house? At that time, houses with tin roofs were extremely rare. Most people’s houses had roofs and walls made of bamboo and straw. Neither these houses could keep out the rain nor the sun. Grameen Bank began offering housing loans to transform these bamboo and straw houses of the poor into tin-roofed homes. While working with women, Grameen Bank encountered a problem—which was divorce. We then started thinking, what could be the way around to this problem? Grameen Bank informed the women that to receive a housing loan, they had to be the owners of the land. The women said they lived in their husband’s home and did not own any land. Grameen Bank then said, tell your husbands to transfer the land to your name, and then we will give you the loan. Since the husbands were interested in having a tin-roofed house, they reluctantly transferred the land under their wives’ names. We provided loans only to those whose land was transferred. Wherever we provided housing loans later, the question of divorce did not arise.
If the issue of divorce ever came up, the wife then could remind the husband about the ownership of the house and land, saying, if you divorce me, you will have to leave the house. The right to own land and a house has been a tremendous gain for women.
The garment industry was established, Grameen Bank was founded, and people began going abroad—a massive change has happened. The image of the homebound Bengali, the clerk Bengali—changed. Previously, Bangladeshis didn’t leave their homes. The Bangladesh we see today after 50 years of evolution was indeed unimaginable.
Remittances and women joining the workforce—these played a central role in the transformation of Bangladesh. Then, both boys and girls started getting education, and women began moving to the city. Women are even participating in meetings and processions in Dhaka city. It was even unthinkable back then that so many girls could walk together. Renting out rooms to women even when a man is not accompanying them is a great deal, marking a social change. This change has laid the foundation, which will go a long way.
Fifty years ago, South Korea’s situation was not much different from Bangladesh. It went through political crises and military rule. However, it emerged as an industrial giant through investment in education and health. What did we miss that prevented us from achieving such progress?
Many changes could have been brought about in our country. However, the change that has taken place is significant. Now, the foundation has been laid at least. We can go a long way based on this foundation. If you look at Malaysia, you will see that the native Malays were extremely poor farmers. Although the Malays were the owners of the soil, the Chinese held all the money. But by providing various opportunities and educational facilities to these owners of the soil, they have reached a stage where they can now govern the country. In all the areas, their position has been established. Dramatic changes have occurred in Malaysia due to their politics. By focusing on education, financial structure, and health, we too can write these chapters of success.
You established the Grameen Bank to empower the poor people of Bangladesh. Now you are over eighty years old. At this age, are you thinking of doing something new for the empowerment of the poor?
I am doing everything that is possible for me. From solving banking sector problems to introducing the concept of social business, I am encouraging the youth to become entrepreneurs. I talk about building a world of three zeros. Our current civilization is a suicidal one. It is leading us to our damnation. We have to build a new civilization, a world which will be of three zeros—zero carbon emissions, zero wealth concentration, and zero unemployment. I encourage youth to establish a three-zero club with just five members. I advise them to work towards fulfilling the three-zero goals and reflect it in their own lives. Because it’s not enough to just tell others; one must first work for change themselves. That means I will not do anything that increases global warming, pollution, or concentration of wealth.
In Bangladesh, there has been a stupendous centralization of wealth in the name of development. Economists and policymakers in the country have all said that this will be a huge problem for the future of Bangladesh. What is your opinion on this matter?
The problem of wealth centralization exists all over the world. However, in Bangladesh, it is happening especially in the name of development. Now development means money going into the hands of the rich. As a result, the rich will continue to become powerful and wealthy. The powerful hold political power. This process is embedded in the existing economic structure. So, without changing the structure, we cannot escape this situation. Therefore, we have to work on transforming the structure. The concept of social business has come for this structural change. We have to do business that solves problems, not just business for profit-making.
Social business centers are being established in various countries around the world in my name—Yunus Social Business Centers have been set up in 108 universities across 39 countries. There, courses on social business are taught. Just as we have created a false world through education, we must also return to the right path through education.
In the 1980s, the youth of Bangladesh established the garment industry together. However, currently, there is an increasing tendency among the youth to leave the country, a phenomenon known as brain drain. Especially, students graduating from renowned universities of the country, such as BUET, are leaving the country. How do you view brain drain? Have the youth moderated dreaming about their country?
I support the youth going abroad. Otherwise, how would they know the world? I myself have been abroad and I find their going abroad justified, for whatever reason it may be. Many ordinary people of the country have gone abroad, which has brought significant changes to the country. Because after seeing foreign countries, they have learned what their own country has and lacks, or what would have been better to have. But if they are leaving out of frustration, then I would say everyone has frustrations. We all have to work together to overcome this frustration. No one will be forced to stay in the country. Every young person should at least go abroad once. Then he or she can decide whether to return to the country or not. There is no reason to think that going abroad deprives the country. One can work for the country even from abroad. It is possible to keep in touch with the country at every moment. Those who return bring back a lot of experience and personal connections. This is very auspicious for the country.
What issues, in your view, are creating frustration in Bangladesh? What needs to be done to reform the education sector in Bangladesh?
We are not changing society as fast as we could. We are only talking about development but are not considering where this development will take us. If we continue this way, frustration will increase, wealth will be centralized in the hands of a few, and the rest will work under them. But people are born to do creative work, not clerical chores. Now, when someone is born, it is said that they must be raised in such a way that they get a job when they grow up. Why do we want to return to a system of servitude? Doing a job is a form of servitude, yet we are born as creative beings. Every person is born as an entrepreneur. Yet, our education system says to hurry to educational institutions so that you can finish your studies quickly and get a job. But this should not be the goal of a person. A person’s goal should be to determine what their contribution or role will be in the world through the application of all their strength, or what signature they will leave behind. The current global education system is a system of servitude. We need to bring the right education system, where a student enters with the hope of becoming an entrepreneur and leaves as one.
You are getting opportunities to work in various countries, is the scenario same for Bangladesh? Am I even finding opportunities in Bangladesh?
I am being attacked from all sides. I am spending time going from door to door at the courts. No opportunity is arising for working for the future. If I find some opportunity in between, I do it. But then suddenly another terrible attack begins.